Well now, your teachings. Could they have been taught in the Piscean Age?
That’s right. The time is right.
Oh, absolutely. It would have been impossible. Out of that Age came what we have! And it is as clear as a bell that that is the way it had to be. No. It is only now…and remember, it is very interesting, this whole period, because if you’ve read The Gnostic Circle one of the key factors is the 9th Manifestation of Sagittarius. This is what most of these new age groups fail to appreciate, that, yes, it is the Aquarian Age, but we are in this larger arc of the 9th Manifestation. And that’s what answers a lot of the questions. Otherwise, just by looking at it in terms of Aquarius, you cannot understand what is happening. You cannot understand this total breakdown. But if you understand it in terms of the birth process: 9 months, 9 ages, 9 manifestations, and either you live or you die — but there is a new creation that comes out. It is very simple and very clear. Then you begin to understand why.
Just because it is the Aquarian Age doesn’t mean that we have to be going through this hell. And poised on the brink. You understand? Where the only solution is a new birth. The only solution is a new creation. There is no other, because we cannot find a solution based on any of the old pillars that we’ve clung to for so long.
So this is the big key. The Piscean Age, the Aquarian Age. Yes, this is important. It is clear: space travel. Before it was discovery of the Earth by sea; now it is into space. All this, the openings to new things…but the real key is this larger arc of six thousand and some odd years, which is this 9th Manifestation, which is the time of the Birth. And, you see, we are dealing with a long arc of time.
But this is the turning point.
Of course. In this very Age.
Are we going to make it?
Well, I have no doubt about it. But just because I have no doubt doesn’t mean that we don’t experience difficulties. Good Lord, just in my work, the difficulties…you cannot imagine. So, it is difficult, but as long as you can see what is going on, as long as you know, then somehow you have the strength from that; and you go on.
You can imagine. This being a new work, the difficulties that it faces are tremendous. You have to literally open a path…and what are you opening? You are opening through a…
So, it is not easy at all.
If I understand it, it is not a question of will we make it, because the fact that you have written and given us that message, is a sign that we have made it.
Well, this is the way I feel about it. That you would not be able to formulate things like this if it was not already done, let’s say, and manifested in time in certain levels. Of course. That’s the whole point. So, that’s why I can sit here and laugh about it.
On the mental plane, it exists. The battle is bringing it down into the physical, before the planet is destroyed.
Yes, of course. It is like two things are joining, a new heaven and a new earth. You see, so they have to reach the same point. This is what is happening now. But what she says is absolutely right. And that is what I felt: that it would be impossible to even formulate…you see, I always talk about this work in terms of a language, which is the formulation of a new synthetic language. And people don’t perhaps realise what that means. It means that you could not create this language if all the elements were not there to make it possible. And those, being there already, means that that creation exists, in seed form. It must grow and overtake the other.
You know, when you look at it in these long cycles, then it is immaterial. Because, as I say, if you see it in the moment, this is your greatest joy — because you realise that you are participating. Even if you’re not connected consciously with a work like this, you just bear in mind that you are living in the times when this magnificent thing is being decided and is getting done.
So, whatever…somewhere in your being It knows that, or you would not have taken birth now, you see?
Is there something unique about this planet? In terms of a mission in the universe, or a function?
Well, I feel that way. I feel that way very strongly, because it all has to do with the soul, what is the nature of the soul. That being so utterly wonderful, this question of the soul, what it is…well, definitely in this solar system that is the contribution of the Earth. Whether in another solar system the same process exists…. It may. But it would be still different. And then there is a beauty here, a certain combination that has come together: its position in the solar system.
When you think about it, the immense combination of circumstances that had to come about in order to allow for such a manifestation. It boggles the mind. And that makes it very unique. Very unique. So, for me it is a grace to be born on this planet. In matter…just to take birth, for me is a grace. Quite the contrary to what people think, that it is a hell. It is only here that you can become conscious, that you live the experience consciously, and the process to evolve and understand that evolution, and enjoy the whole process. On other planes you cannot. You don’t evolve. There are planes where there may be perceptions that are even, let’s say, closer to the Divine. But there they do not evolve. And then when you go even higher, you obliterate the capacity. You see? And this is what is so unique that takes place in a body. And that is what the ego is all about. It serves its purpose; it provides you with a separate instrument of perception; but at the same time then you have to surpass the ego.
There is an aphorism of Sri Aurobindo: ‘The ego was the helper, the ego is the bar.’ That’s the point. It allows you to evolve this instrument that grants you the capacity to have this conscious experience of the Divine, this evolution. And at the same time, of course, you have to surpass it at a certain point, if you really want to attain the new consciousness.
So for me it is completely the opposite. So completely that, I tell you, it gets to be a problem now, because everything is just so old. You know, I look at all of this and I say: It’s just so OLD. How can they presume that that is going to be the solution. You know, it is something for me that is like coming out of the Dark Ages. Whereas the other is so simple. So clear. So new. Because it is a new manifestation. We have had it in seed form. But we have not consciously lived it yet. And this is what we are doing in this Manifestation.
I haven’t read The New Way, but does it then obliterate what I have understood every religion is, the ancient wisdom which has been passed down through, I don’t know, small circles? So, The New Way just obliterates the ancient teachings?
I don’t think so. I think rather it’s just simply carrying all that forward into this new thing, because I often refer to certain teachings — myths, especially, where you really have very profound truths. Because in these myths you always are dealing with the soul of the Earth, the soul of the species.
No, I wouldn’t say that it obliterates them, but I would say that it certainly does make a lot of sense out of what all these things were for. Why they did manifest. But at the same time, it is giving you the New Way. It is saying: That is what it was all about up until that point. Now we are dealing with something new. But this has evolved from that. And you cannot disconnect it from its past also.
It’s like the birth of a child. While it is a foetus it is one thing. But when it is born, it is a new thing. And it’s a thing on its own. Complete in itself. Any woman can understand that. Your experience of it in the womb is one thing, and this is exactly what we have known as a civilisation: we are a civilisation as yet unborn. And it is very clear…but of course it will be much clearer once we have gone through this period. But the important thing is to see it while it is happening, because the process of birth is so exciting. All the conditions that are forcing this Birth.
I think the question that I asked earlier was, will this new consciousness be able to come to our planet? Or will the planet be destroyed before that can take place? And if the planet really is destroyed, does it really matter?
Definitely it does matter. This is a very interesting question, because it comes up all the time, in the sense that even in the work in terms of this microcosmic element that I am dealing with, for example, there were crucial points in this process where you said, ‘Well, one has got to overtake the other at some point.’ As a matter of fact, I just briefly referred to a certain work that I was doing in India in 1983 and 1984…and there, as a matter of fact, this whole point was really at stake. Well, what is going to emerge? Is one thing going to overtake the other? And I can happily say that, in terms of the modest yoga that was being performed individually and collectively, we got through that period and something really very fantastic did happen, which was the big breakthrough. In other words, now, that new consciousness overtakes the other, and the danger, I feel, is passed entirely. In fact, that is the only reason why I am here today. It is because it did succeed, otherwise it would have been useless and irrelevant to go anywhere and open my mouth about anything.
Is there any way we can make a dent in the minds of our world leaders?
I think that is again irrelevant [laughter]. In the sense that…I mean, they are just going to be carried along by a process, and what seems to be the way is that those things will go on, the old forms will continue like this.
Now, what I was telling you about just briefly was something on the seed level. A breakthrough occurred on the seed level. And this is the most important thing, because if it doesn’t occur there, it doesn’t occur anywhere else. I could go into this in very great detail, but now is not the time, and I don’t know if it ever will be in this type of…. It concerns a very intense collective process that went on. But it can be described very accurately.
All of the other things are simply ‘influenced’ then, they are carried along in the process, and they go on and on and on. I can tell you, for example, when you are dealing with individuals — you asked this before. You said this; that we are serving even though we are not perfect. This is what you mentioned before… It is the same condition, where a person is used as an instrument. Let’s say Ronald Reagan, — and he is totally unconscious of what he is doing. But he is used to create a lot of tension in the world — the arms build up, and all of that. The moment he came in power I said, ‘This is it: this man is there to create this particular tension.’ And he is doing it beautifully. Now, he can be unconscious, or at a certain point he can have a choice where he can do his role consciously, which of course would change his role entirely. But those people generally remain unconscious instruments.
But you take people, for example, who are involved in this microcosmic element, that are people who are working on themselves and they are really offering themselves. They get bogged down in their difficulties so they don’t see their instrumentation; and they suffer from that. Now these people, they are used also. They are instruments in this. But there comes a point where they are no longer needed because that work is done.
Take what happened in the work we were doing. Those people served the purpose at that time. Now, after that, it becomes a personal choice. Up until that point they are helpless; they are made to serve that function, like Reagan is in the White House, like Gorbachev over there, like this one and that one. But after that work is done, they are really no longer needed in that sense, and then it becomes a totally personal choice. Then they fall back into a sort of individual instrument where they can choose to continue that way, or they can fall off completely and they are not taken up again.
So, that’s the whole point. You see, it is virtually impossible that Ronald Reagan is going to open up to the new way! I mean it would never…it is simply not in his ‘style’, his role.
I have had certain things to do with so-called politicians in India because they were involved. That was something entirely different though. And those people were rather conscious of what they were doing. And of course it was India also: you can talk to anybody about these things, no matter who. The Prime Minister, the President and on downward. They listen and they understand, and deep inside they know that that is where the solution lies. They know it because it is in their tradition. The Brahmin was the highest caste and he had spiritual knowledge and he was above the king, and he advised the king.
So, we start from a different level which is nonexistent here in the United States, for example. When you go into this thing about influencing: Yes, influence. But you have to influence indirectly, I think in this case. And that is by working on processes where the work is really done; and these people are simply carried along. In other words, it is important to get on with the work.
There are groups that pray that the minds of world leaders will be opened.
Have they been opened? I believe we are going to get into another delicate subject, about prayers like that, and all. Well, everybody has to do what they feel is right, but usually…you see, if these things are not done with knowledge, real knowledge, then they make them feel good, the ones who are praying; that is positive in itself. But actually changing…?
Is that a manifestation of ego, that we think we can change things?
Well, also. But also there are a lot of people who are sincere and they really want to do something, but they don’t know. They have no knowledge…
I wanted to ask you, in terms of being an unconscious instrument and getting on with the work, do you think that many people do work while they sleep? Or do you have to be in your body?
Yes, they do. This is a fact. I find it a very important part of the work, in dreams, conscious dreaming, coming out of the body, and all these things. But these again are stages that one reaches by work on oneself, by having that knowledge to deal with these things. But the sleep element is very important. Far more important than what many yogas consider. Let’s face it; we spend an awful lot of time sleeping, so if you’re unconscious when you’re awake, you will be equally unconscious when you sleep. We have gone into that, PH and I, about conscious dreaming and what it is all about. I mean, coming into a dream state consciously. This is quite different, — very different, your experience of it. But it is no different than you experience in life, it’s no different than that. You can be caught in the outer whirlwind of life in the waking state, and the same in dreams. In dream you can stand as a witness and everything revolves around you, if you are poised and conscious in life, you see? In the waking state. Then when you go into the dream state, you can go into it in the same condition and your dreams will become entirely different. They are more objective, and they influence — because in dreams of course you are touching very deep levels of the unconscious and the subconscious.
In this yoga, for example, there are stages where your dream work is very important. And generally it is important. You may keep a record of your dreams, the dates when they occur, and like that. As you would do in psychotherapy.
When you said, ‘This yoga’, is ‘yoga’ just a synonym for ‘work’?
In the way I am using it now, yes, of course. I use that term interchangeably; I am usually referring to Sri Aurobindo’s integral yoga, but with something else now which is the Supramental Yoga that he was alluding to, really, because he never really described it. So, that is the different phase that we are coming into now. When I say ‘the work’, I mean work on oneself within the framework of this particular discipline.
What would you suggest for people who haven’t read your work? Where would one start?
I always say The Magical Carousel, because I think that is so easy. It’s like cosmology without tears! But nobody else seems to realise that! They always seem to go to The Gnostic Circle. To me it seems so easy. Everything is there, in that little story, with the Commentaries especially. But most people like The Gnostic Circle. It really depends also on the type of person. I personally think The New Way can be read even first. That is because of the way it is written.
That’s your latest.
Another thing is the Newsletter that’s coming out now. This, I have to say, is a very exciting development, because…it came out not because it was a mental decision: ‘Well, now we’re going to print a newsletter!’ But because we had made that transition, and then came the time to start contacting people and creating a certain ‘web’ around the world, with people connected in the process. So that was the purpose of the Newsletter.
The Newsletter is giving out immediate…I mean, every two months it is coming out, and I am writing things on the immediate yoga. What is being done. So there is a process at work there. Of course, people, they read it, they may not realise this in the beginning; but later on, after the first few, you will see what an impact that will make.
That’s another thing. That has carried it [the work] now to another, very immediate stage, because it is possible now to contact people, after a certain nucleus is solidly there. And draw them into the process.
So there are various things. I think you have to just let yourself be guided in that, and what you feel. It is very difficult to be dogmatic on that: start with this, start with that. I think you have to make the selection yourself. Maybe have the books with you so that you can, at a given moment; and maybe in your conversations, if you refer to things, then you gradually get into it.
I picked up The Hidden Manna early, and simply couldn’t read it, it was so overwhelming. But now a year later I am reading it. It’s interesting. I had all the books at home, and some of them, like that, I couldn’t go to. It wasn’t the right time. And then I picked it up recently…
But, you see, you can probably understand why in your particular case that was so. Because of your Catholic background.
That’s right. I had to work through some emotional thing, about letting go of St. John and the Revelation.
And being ready to understand it in a different…and not afraid of it! That you are going to be pulled back into it again? If you feel that, you must follow your feelings. You must always follow your inner promptings, even if it is a negative manifestation. As long as you are sincere, as long as you really want THAT, you know, you will find your way. That is why you have to be very careful: no dogmas, no mental formulas.
I think it is like a new language, and if one is willing to take it up and not try to dissect every word, but let it really seep inside, and get the deeper meaning; that is the important thing about your work. It is affecting all the levels, and not to worry if you don’t understand the language. Don’t worry about it, not understanding the language. Because then you come back a year later, and you absolutely know the language.
That’s true, and why? Because I said it is really…if you could label it anything, it is an applied cosmology, an applied ‘language’. So that language doesn’t exist for you unless it is applied. Not applied mentally. Not that you sit there with the Gnostic Circle and you say, ‘Today, we are at this point, this and this is going to happen, this is what I must do.’ That’s not the point. The circumstances of your life must bring that alive. In other words, you are going to see the Divine in every circumstance of your life, and you grow then into that Consciousness. The Gnostic Circle is a blueprint of a “consciousness” which you are growing into. You are becoming That. And the Gnostic Circle is like the ‘ABC’. I have always said this; it is the ABC of this work, of this cosmology, and The New Way was making the sentences with it, creating, writing the whole book based on this. So, essentially one should be, or could be, read before the other, but not necessarily.
I tried to start with The Magical Carousel, but I really didn’t understand it; and as I read it, I knew I was going to have to have the whole thing explained to me. So it didn’t seem worthwhile to continue. I went on to The Gnostic Circle, which I really liked very much, much better. I haven’t finished it yet, it is slow going, but it has a lot of rich things in it for me, and 1 really…I wanted to ask you, do you sense yourself evolving? Do you sense the evolution occurring?
Well, what I sense is: hewing the path. And that is a process that is evolving. Of course. Very much so. And in all my books that ‘growth’ is there. The Magical Carousel was the first one, that was the ‘seed’, you know, mythic; and all that was there. And then they have all evolved out of that. Certainly there is a growth. But I must say that I started…well, can I say…the total vision was there, and then just different aspects of it came up. But, you see, for me that was the most important part. Because I remember in 1972, I was in the Ashram [in Pondicherry], and I had this overwhelming experience which in India is called the Brahman Consciousness, when you go into That. Of course it was something magnificent. It lasted for a number of days…in that state, which in other yogas is the height. You attain that and that’s it. Well, for me, at that time, I said, ‘Well, this is It.’ I didn’t even formulate it to myself like that. But I was in that state where it seemed to me that that was the totality. Because it was everything. The Fullness. It was no ‘void’, at all.
But, fortunately, as luck would have it, the Mother was there, and she just kept pushing me on; of course, without any resistance on my part, because I am made that way. And the beauty of it was what evolved out of that; and later on I realised that that was really just a ‘seed’. So, this ‘growth’…but it has come from that, and then just develops like a flower, on and on and on and on and on. So the growth is there.
What I meant was more like when you refer to the Divine jelling in the material. That’s what I meant, in terms of the evolution. Because some of the people have been talking about evolving to another level.
But, in what sense? Were you asking this personally?
Yes. Do you experience that? Do you experience that, the way…
I don’t think I have got the question. Which probably means I haven’t done it! [Laughter]
…the Spiritual, not manifesting on a higher plane but on a physical plane. That kind of thing.
Oh yes, definitely, that has taken place. I mean, that is the Consciousness. Period. That is the reason why I find myself at odds completely with everything else that is going on now, because this direction is so totally different. You see? I would have no work, I would be ‘jobless’!
Yes, that notion is what really struck me in your work. I think that, to me, was the central point.
I have to say…perhaps this will clarify too, that I never write anything on the basis of speculation. Every line has been a direct experience. Because I don’t write unless that has come. It is the ‘yoga’ that is performed, the experience that comes. And then out of that…it just so happens that it took the form of writing, because that is the medium today. We can communicate like that. But nothing is written that has not been experienced. Even in seed form. It may not be the full aspect of it, but the seed, which is enough for me to see the development of that particular process that I may be discussing. So every single thing has been a lived experience; and I think that that does come across in the books. I know that in a certain sense that is what may disturb people too. Someone who is writing from a lived experience and is not quoting this one or that one, and the endless bibliographies, and they feel a little bit at sea. They don’t know.
This concludes our transcript of
15 June 1986 Talks with Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet